As I have told many, my mother has been the greatest musical influence in my life. When people notice my 27,000+ (I am shameless) song iTunes Library, I consider it a reflection of the wealth of knowledge that my mother gave me at a young age. What must be understood about my life is the fact that as a child we did not listen to the radio. Instead our car was inundated with the sounds of Donny Hathaway, Marvin Gaye, Roy Ayers, and Donald Byrd. Even as I grew older my mother introduced me to Lauryn Hill (Miseducation Tour with my mom was my first concert ever…), Erykah Badu, Jill Scott and Mary J. Blige. Being a musician herself, my mother understood sounds and harmonies on a level unbeknownst to the average listener. This translated into the musical selection that she passed on to me.
Because of this, I first heard that familiar piano cadence without an accompanying drum loop. When I first heard those notes, smooth yet aggressively stroked piano notes, they were then Ahmad Jamal’s “I Love You” from his 1970 classic The Awakening. However, many of my contemporaries would understand the piece in question as Nas’ “The World Is Yours” produced by legendary producer Pete Rock. It’s moments like these that I cherish in life—I listen to a hip-hop record to find a song from my past; from music’s elongated history
“Hip Hop is like what you would call the bastard child of a lot of different forms of music…” ~DJ Jazzy Jay of the Universal Zulu Nation on “Rock and Roll (Could Never Hop Like This) Part 2While I generally agree with this broad analysis of hip-hop, I feel that it is necessary—and quite controversial—to add that these different musical variants were brought together to form something that, may be music, but wasn’t necessarily created by musicians. Allow me elaborate. In my unnecessary ruminations on this thing we call hip-hop, I became cognizant of the notion that maybe hip-hop as a musical medium is not, itself music. Again, I must explain (I feel the pulse of every little backpacker racing with every one of my sacrilegious words). The identity of “music”, created by literally taking someone else’s music, is inherently problematic. When does one cross the line in careful reconstruction of another’s work and just flat out beat-jacking? Ultimately, I have concluded that regardless of the level of skill placed into this synthesis of new and old that we call hip-hop, it remains music. After all it does contain concretive musical elements of harmony and rhythm. What I will not concede, however, is the identity of the hip-hop producer as an authentic musician. This is not a castigation of all producers; it must be noted however that some maintain suspect identities as today’s purported musical elite.
In looking at the case of Pete Rock’s production of “The World Is Yours”, while I give ample credit for his crate digging in finding the sample, his ability to find the perfect portion to sample and ultimately producing the beat we know and love today, it should be understood that theoretically his works sounds more like a musical engineer than an actual musician. This does not negate the musical prowess of Pete Rock. I just feel that it is important to understand the juxtaposing constructions of art between Ahmad Jamal and Pete Rock.
Look kids he plays a real live piano…wooooow.
While Jamal, a formally trained-pianist undertook the painfully excruciating task of composing the piece based within musical chords, rhythmic timing and performance annunciation, Pete Rock gathered the sample, cut and pasted the song and looped it, added layers of organized sound effects and scratches, dropped the pitch and—quite fittingly—placed in the perfect artificial drum kit pattern.
I apologize (not really) if I come off as an elitist or someone that is too hard on hip-hop. Again, I do not attempt to belittle the work of the hip-hop producer—I would just like to put it into perspective. I believe this idea of sampling and production tools has created a substantially bigger monster in opening the game to the likes of various clowns such as Soulja Boy who can “make a beat in [his] hotel room” while on tour. It’s the simplicity of production that makes its perpetuated definition as music such an absurdity. I don’t make beats and I’m sure I couldn’t make a beat like Grammy-Award winning producer Kanye West. Now my friend and beat aficionado Isaiah ”DJ Zay” Greene has claimed to have recreated a Kanye beat from scratch. Now DJ Zay is nice but he definitely hasn’t won any Grammys…yet. My issue is while I play the alto saxophone and consider myself to be quite competent I can and never will be able to replicate Charlie Parker’s “Ornithology”. When one plays an instrument it is on a completely different plane in comparison to mechanically doctoring someone else’s work—regardless of the difficulty.
There are producers who have pushed boundaries in producing music however. Arguably (it really isn’t actually) the greatest producer hip-hop has ever seen, J Dilla played myriad instruments all of which he introduced within his work—including the flute…the flute.
Pause…Think about it…Continue.
I believe I have gushed enough about my not so secret crush towards talented producer/multi-instrumentalist, ?uestlove. As much flak as The Neptunes receive for their mainstream sounds, they deserve more credit then most “underground” producers for being well-trained instrumentalists who rarely rely on samples—furthermore when these individuals use samples they create a completely different song. As a musical nerd, I enjoy finding originals and comparing them to their newer interpretation. What you can find in looking at Kanye West is arguably (again it really isn’t) the laziest beat usage outside of The Diplomats’ producers, The Heatmakerz. Usually taken in the first 30 seconds of a song, these samples are generally sped up and given a customary Kanye drum loop. On the other hand, I remain in disbelief—three years later—at the way in which Dilla chopped up Marvin Gaye’s “God Is Love” and created Common’s “Love Is”

What’s that mommy?…It’s a guitar honey. They played those when I was a little girl.
Regardless of where you stand, I hope you understand my point. I really enjoy hip-hop. However, because of my entry point, as listening to originals first as well as playing an instrument myself, I have a different perspective. I believe that some of the work Kanye West has done is phenomenal and most likely could not be replicated by musical great Marvin Gaye. However, it is slightly ironic that Kanye would probably be using a creation of Gaye’s in the first place. I applaud musical engineers for their talents behind the booth. While I ultimately believe that their endeavors, at the most simplistic level, is substantially less arduous than creating music with an actual instrument, without a prompt, I do respect the talents of the hip-hop greats.
Shouts outs to UPenn producers Willie Beemen and RJF…Expect an Ummah-esque project out of the Beeman-RJF-Zay production triumvirate in the near future…
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I tend to be opposed to the restriction applied to different kinds of art in the form of blanket rules as to how an artist of a particular medium can be defined/identified/labelled.
I respect that you’re not trying to insult the hip hop producer or any other proponent of the largely computerized, possibly naive, new wave view of conventional artistic possibility, and am equally against the Soulja Boys of the world. Regardless, I can’t agree with any large scale alienation of any particular group of contributors to the music world from musicianship. Yes, allowing anyone who wants to be a musician into the private club does bring out the S.B.’s of the world, and it is a shame, but any manner of thinking which may in the end stunt the growth of any movement that may turn out to personify the progression of the medium seems to be more problematic to me than allowing the entry of what can widely be considered as lazy or “bad” art.
I don’t question the validity of your arguments to the differences between music played on an instrument and music typed into a computer (or simply looped) but I don’t think that argument necessarily holds any relevance to the job of identifying who can be called a musician from who can’t.
“Good art” and “bad art” are considerably more elusive concepts to me, but I have the fairly optimistic belief that anything that anyone wants to call “art”, whether good or bad, is art. And insofar as he has produced that art, he may call himself the artist. Or in this case, musician.
Comment by corona May 19, 2008 @ 2:38 pmI mean I basically agree with you. I hate barriers and boundaries as well…but broad definitions are just not that serious. The most rudimentary definition of a musician is one who makes or composes music. While, what these producers create is music, I am simply trying to problematize the notion of literally looping and chopping someone else’s chords and rhythms (which they most likely cannot read) and call them musicians.
Furthermore I did not note all producers as musical engineers. I mean clearly their is a very blurred line between the musical engineer and the musician. I believe that Kanye does have his moments as a musician when he pulls out the piano; because most definitions of musician have some type of inclusion of a musical instrument. While Kanye on his mpc does produce music, it is the most artificial manufacturing possible. I mean the musical engineer can be just as talented as the musician.
My point is let’s not make these individuals out to be more than what they are. A great producer, void of instruments, really is an individual who is talented at copy and paste (which to me is a phenomenally valid talent which I wish I could do).
I mean if, for this post, I had copied every different sentence from other people’s work. Sure my ability to synthesis various quotes should be commended, however I don’t think that it makes me a writer. I mean I suppose that makes what I created a written document. But at the end of the day, I still believe I lose some production points and Penn (if this was a final paper) would kick me out for plagiarism. I mean this is like the Jay-Z effect. Dude shouts on like everyone else’s lines and we call him a lyrical genius (yes I understand his own lyrics are really good too). What I give credit to Jay and more importantly these producers…is their exposing the ignorant masses (including myself, at times) to other music. I mean, more than ever people are looking back to samples, collecting sample collections and “Diggin” through the crates-all of which can be accredited to sampling.
Again, I don’t like boundaries, but at some point we have to draw the line. I didn’t even mean to hate on Soulja Boy, which I don’t like people doing. He’s just another musical engineer who doesn’t have to be that talented to be successful. However, I am most likely slightly higher than Soulja Boy on the sax…if we want to compare across lines. However, I will never be up for a Grammy. Note I didn’t say sell records which is completely based on the consumer…I said win a Grammy, which suppose trained individuals vote on. My point in this is that the level of talent is substantially lower in production than in instrumentalists…I mean if that doesn’t say something about the two juxtaposing crafts….”What more can I say”
“I’m not a biter I’m a writer for myself and others/I say a Big verse I’m only biggin’ up my brother.”…riiiight Jay.
Comment by Paul May 19, 2008 @ 3:25 pmoh and as far as calling your product art and a musician, these are two different situations. I mean art, sure, because that is one of the most abstract ideas ever. Music is, while wide-ranging, definitely more definable than the umbrella that hovers over it, art. Furthermore…this whole you can call it what you want and then it is…well, I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again…
“I Am The King Of France”
…and I am.
Comment by Paul May 19, 2008 @ 3:42 pm1. Shweeeeet muxtapes! Who knew “Kick Push” sampled from a famous Tagalog song….yeaaa Philippines, shoutout to my motherland.
2. Great piece.
Comment by iamchloe May 20, 2008 @ 5:46 pmAwesome article. At the end of they day, artists are going to do what sells because it’s simply all about the money. I’m not even sure they would care what we called them, as long as they’re “Going straight to the bank with this”
That’s a line by 50 by the way.
I love the article though
Comment by Perk May 28, 2008 @ 1:25 amWhile there are certainly some producers who use lots of samples and the same drum loop on every song, there are many more instances in which samples aren’t used at all or if it is it’s not even a full line. We give classical composers credit for creating harmonious symphonies even if they are not capable of playing each instrument themselves, why then do we say producers aren’t musicians because they get their instruments from a keyboard. The artistic expression is in the way they use the drums, pianos, horns, and hand claps to create their own beat with their own personal touch. So your friend can reconstruct a Kanye beat, good for him, I would love to be able to do the same, but what’s the difference between him and the old man playing the saxophone at the jazz club on the corner? They both are talented musicians who have yet to get their big break, just because cant replicate Charlie Parker’s “Ornithology” doesn’t mean that he can’t. I have no problem with what you’re saying about the samples and repetitive horns that some producers use but that does not mean that the majority of hip-hops producers are not musicians.
Comment by Ed June 23, 2008 @ 2:41 pm1. Most modern composers are learned in most instruments…it’s a part of the training actually. Even the oldest, if they did not know myriad instruments, definitely mastered there own…in other words…false.
2. Hip-Hop is based on samples…so the many instances that I noted that do not involve samples is definitely enormously outnumbered by those who do sample…
3. I said a keyboard was an instrument…
4. Just because you have a “break” has absolutely nothing to do with being a musician…at all…no on ever made that point.
5. And if you have no problem with my criteria with musicianship and you actually know Hip-Hop production then you would concluded that most are not really musicians and more musical engineers…not a big deal either way.
6. Point again completely missed.
Comment by Paul June 23, 2008 @ 2:55 pmMy point in talking about getting ur break was that just because ur boy says he can recreate a kanye beat and u cant replicate Charlie Parker’s “Ornithology” doesn’t meant that what Kanye does is monumentally more simplistic or easier to replicate. My point was that there are lots of other people who are extremely talented (like DJ Zay for instance) who can replicate a Kanye beat from scratch but the majority of us cannot, just like the majority of us cannot replicate “Ornithology.”
My main point is that one cannot say that beat makers and producers are not musicians simply because they do not play the saxophone or piano. You can argue that the complexity of the music or the difficulty of the music makes classical composers, or saxophonists, or jazz violinists more gifted or more talented but at the end of the day someone who makes music is a musician. Do you consider yourself a musician because you play the saxophone? You should. But have you ever created your own songs? If you have, does that mean your only a musician when your playing your own songs? I recognize the difference between the two scenarios is that ur argument is that producers often just lazily jack a beat or use a sample but at the core the scenarios are the same. In every style of music there is sampling or all out biting but that doesn’t mean ur not a musician. If you take a portion of another song, and incorporate your own drums or horns or what have you, you have created a different, unique, musical composition. Furthermore, if you do accept the keyboard to be a musical instrument I don’t see how you can say someone who uses it to make their own unique sound with their own individual twist is not a musician. To deny producers the title of musicians simply because they sample is not grounded in anything.
Comment by Ed June 25, 2008 @ 10:08 amKanye is pretty simplistic in his beats…J Dilla, Primo, others are very complex…again get the samples, it’s pretty cut and dry…and my point is quite grounded as the article proves, not even going to begin to engage that point…finally no one is saying what they do is not music…I just gave them a different title (musical engineer) cuz and mpc or a computer isn’t an instrument…it’s a computer…no one said they weren’t talented just different.
Comment by Paul June 25, 2008 @ 10:14 amI would say though that Kanye’s real talent is his knowledge of just music…like he has one of the best ears for samples, which probably shows his knowledge of different genres. I mean that’s pretty legit and dope to me when I find new music through his samples. It’s like Weezy saying,
“And that was called recycling
or rereciting
something cause you just like it
so you say it just like it.
Some say its biting
but I say its enlightening…”
Sidenote: to get a better perspective on easy beat making find the sample to Dr. Carter, produced by Swizz Beatz…it’s a David Axelrod joint “Holy Thursday”…maybe the laziest sample of all time…even Kanye takes the time to put his trademark drums on his beats.
Comment by Paul June 25, 2008 @ 10:41 amword I agree, I’m not a huge fan of the Carter 3, it grows on me everytime I listen to it but both the carter and the carter 2 were much better in my opinion. I will say that “Tie My Hands” is one of my favorite songs right now…weezy cant go wrong with Robin Thicke features.
U like Joe Budden?
Comment by Ed June 25, 2008 @ 10:47 amFrom the little bit that I have heard from Buddens and the video with Gloria Velez…I do respect him a lot…I haven’t listened to a whole lot tho…he’s on the list of people I need to give a serious listening too tho.
Comment by Paul June 26, 2008 @ 11:23 amHe’s only got one cd released which had some good stuff but the real gems are on the mood muzik mixtape series. He’s got three mixtapes mood muzik 1,2,&3 and theyre all fire
Comment by Ed June 27, 2008 @ 9:22 am